Designing how we design @KimGoodwin - UX Camp 5, Ottawa 2014 © 2014 istockphoto organization’s decision-making values YOUR values Per Axbom Yeah, I completely agree. Kim Goodwin in my opinion, we need it. And I thought, Wow, that’s a good start. Kim: I think they are just as subject to deluding ourselves into thinking that something is good for you because it is going to help us meet that metric that we’re being evaluated on. When you think about the kinds of harm that we can do to people’s privacy, their wellbeing, literally, their mental health. Kim, we’re sitting in a room, here they are, design systems, we’re sick of them already. Well, well, it helps users. The FDA recalls your medical product because it killed people, or hopefully nothing like that will happen here. It’s important to have some overarching values articulated, but you also have to articulate values in a much more granular way, at the level of every single team and help them translate that into actionable ideas. Per Axbom Essentially, we’re not the first industry who has ethical dilemma SN concerns? Gerry: Kim, I want to ask you a question about the role of metrics and goals and values. Per Axbom Earlier this year, we met up with Kim Goodwin in Stockholm, as she was doing a talk at from business buttons. Per Axbom So it’s a way of making the sacrifices more visible to the decision makers. That might be one example. Boosting Research and Design Adoption Kim Goodwin. We start with design systems, but move on to critiquing Maslow’s pyramid, the ethics of digital the Nuremberg Code, and independent review boards, we have a brief evaluation of capitalism and then finishing strong with the two not one things you need to be measuring. Usually people respond with, “Well, thank god somebody is doing that because it needs to be done.” Then they don’t get confused about what I do. But yeah, some part of making tech more humane is going to be dependent on governments, just as companies are not going to do this on their own. Just as has been true since when I first started in design, we don’t want to automate the misery. To my mind, if I were going to do a job interview in an organisation, for example, one of the questions I would ask is about how decisions get made. Another question from the Netherlands, and it’s Neil Cortson, Neil is a service designer in Koos, I was wandering if she could talk about the influence of decision frameworks and the adoption or maturity of design within the organisation, is there a link and how do we go about it? James Royal-Lawson I mean, is there a degree of transparency with it as well, or.. James Royal-Lawson I was just thinking about review boards, and they would, would we would we want any level of transparency with that process? I think user experience is an important concept that users have an experience with all aspects of a system, including customer service and everything else that we don’t touch, but claiming that we own that I think is, let me be blunt, ridiculous. And those risks. Because probably most of us think that way. Kim: I think they have the best of all intentions. Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0). Graduating with honors from the University of San Francisco, Dr. Goodwin has a BS majoring in biology with a minor in psychology. Sure enough, the designers might have some questions and some real concerns about the direction that things are going in, yet, the business trumps them. And I like that construction, because what it says is, yes, we are about helping individual self actualize. Whereas today, those of us who do have the interests, and the awareness, and even the resources can go out there. Dr. Kim Goodwin became an OB/GYN because she loves "taking care of women and delivering babies is a thrill". She helps design teams shift their cultures to be more successful by helping them frame arguments, plan and execute multi-year change strategies, and educating CEO’s on what decisions can undermine teams. Yeah, there’s some usability improvement. if you will. We’re always making a trade off, there’s always something that provides a boundary on our behaviour. Tell me the story about how decisions got made on this project? You know, sometimes the the metric is sort of an a leading indicator of profit. James Royal-Lawson And even though I’ve just we’ve just been discussing ways in which way we could practically do something now because some of the the bigger changes will take time and are complex. ... It’s an especially good opportunity to make sure the senior people stay involved at key decision points. Yeah. C Kim Goodwin is Head of Equities at Credit Suisse Private Fund Group. Tell us a little bit more, I know you did a great talk as well, in IXTA in Buenos Aires earlier this year. All of those things, once you have those in place and when you have a diverse set of people and a diverse set of user research input to help you spot the issues that you might not be aware of, that’s when you’re in a position to make better use of a design system. That could be a team-level principle you could break that down into. Kim-Maree has 19 jobs listed on their profile. To be allowed into the review board. Gerry: What do you think it is about design systems that’s so appealing to organisations? Now, we acknowledge how design systems are excellent tools to help organisations create, but they’re lacking the critical piece of self-awareness, where they can still obviously be used to create products and services that harm. Right? Per Axbom for me that ties well back to what she was saying in the beginning of the interview about design systems, and what are we spending our time on? I think how you go about it really depends on your starting point, right. But I think that all things in moderation, right? James Royal-Lawson You have to keep keep that, Oh, yeah. So she created a simple chart – which went unexpectedly viral. But it’s been about us because I when I think about worked I’ve done with design systems, it’s about making that thing we’re trying to grapple with and manage more manageable. But anyway, I don’t mean to slam design systems. Kim: The genesis of that term actually is a conference organiser said, “Hey, Kim, come do a talk for us on design systems.” I said, well, I could talk about that, but… I would actually rather talk about enabling what I think is a much bigger issue. Kim Goodwin's talk on From Business to Buttons, on May 3 2019 in Stockholm. James Royal-Lawson The obvious one, is the thing that you’re actually trying to achieve. The way that organisations use values I think is mostly ineffective because you do have those posters on the wall that say: People first. James Royal-Lawson I think I think we actually had similar kind of reflection, when we talked to her last in Episode 192. I actually saw someone preparing for an IPO, I forget the company name, but they had their perspectives out. Other people might say, I think our user experience is still fine. You know, if you look at a lot of the app business models that are focused on convenient services for those of us who can afford them, are they actually helping the people who provide those services? And I think, yeah, if there had been a woman in the room, even one, yeah, that wouldn’t make it out the door. What You’ll Learn ... such as conducting a pair-wise comparison or building a weighted decision matrix; Kim: Well, lots of people would argue that service design, user experience are the same thing. Service design and design thinking? How am I expected to get that out in under…? Per Axbom if we’re more efficient than has to be helpful for them. There’s a journey there as well, for which we’ve gone kind of like too far too quick before. I’d love to know what Kim feels about the influence of AI and design systems and how that enhances or degrades the experience as a user? Are they actually being manipulated in a way that makes them more money? This is not the first time Kim Goodwin takes the stage at From Business to Buttons. But at some point, our health starts to degrade our mental health or our physical health or both. James Royal-Lawson That most of us work in teams and and work in, in, in constellations in groups, communities, you could say within organisations where we can exert quite a bit of power in our little inner circle to make some of these decisions. Gerry: Yes, it’s like, what? Did you look at any metrics that might be opposed to that. James Royal-Lawson the Nuremberg Code and, or review boards. Gerry: Yes. There’s no room for a soul in capitalism, as it’s currently conceived in the world. I think that interaction design is not inherently pro-human or not. Per Axbom exactly all the time, you have to get things signed off. I think if we talk about user experience design, back when I started, interaction design was sort of the new sexy term because we wanted to not be thought of as just interface design and deeper and richer. Lots of CEOs would get fired for doing that in existing public companies. But they’re also harder to measure then more automated metrics are, right, because the values that you’re not willing to sacrifice are usually not things you can measure with click through and, and other things like that, that you can just instrument, you actually have to ask people. There’s lots of evidence that people’s mental health is being damaged by too much time online. Kim Goodwin kicked off the conference keynotes by calling on decision makers and designers alike to understand how their decision and design systems shape the world we humans experience. A transcript of Episode 221 of UX Podcast. Per Axbom And you made some really important points about diversity today. I think in some cases, designers are complicit in bad decisions, right. We’re over optimising to the profit metric. How do you recruit them? What used to be a one-direction decision-making process has evolved into more complex interactive experiences as technologies have changed. What is the path we need to take now? That murky water where designers, for the best part, I think the ones that I’ve definitely experienced and worked with, they get doing good and they have a human-centerdness, but when it spells into other areas of the business, how can we work better with those areas to make sure that that type of framework exists beyond the design world? Gerry: Kim, how can people find out how to stay in touch with you? With listeners in 189 countries from Honduras to Qatar. But, yeah, you’re not going to get every possible life experience or interest represented in any team. Right. And so I think there’s some truth to that. Here’s the way I frame it, which is, we want a metric that describes our business goal. Seat patients and physicians as peers. Kim Goodwin Right. This transcript has been machine generated and checked by a human. Kim: Yes, I think it does, I think the fundamentals in it are still accurate. You get beat up in the market a little bit. And I just think we don’t need to gold plate our tools. No says Kim, changing how we make decisions gives more. So we’re definitely intervening in people’s health. So we’re always trying to achieve some business outcome, usually, it goes back to profit. ... It’s an especially good opportunity to make sure the senior people stay involved at key decision points. Would reviews happen behind closed doors – is I suppose what I’m trying to say. Then you go in and you have some meetings with the teams and stuff. Because I think in house, even when you’re a consultant working with a client, it’s very easy to sort of delude yourself into thinking that something that’s about your needs is really serving user needs. And so, behaviour change isn’t inherently evil. Gerry: Yes, it’s kind of like the Marie Antoinette guillotine, you’ve got the designers looking at the rope, going, “Do you think we should make it more ergonomic, so the blade can fall quicker?”. Kim Goodwin, three-time guest on UX Podcast and a person we have huge amounts of respect for joins us at From Business To Buttons to talk about decision systems – Design systems are often a good investment, but do they give the highest rate of return? Kim Goodwin. Maybe we should – you’re smiling at me as if we maybe should have it already now. As explained in the free e-book UX Design Process Best Practices, the first stage of the process should be research, which is divided into collecting data and organizing it. Daniel Bertram, weed superintendent for Lemhi County, ID has provided plant location data and advises on development of the decision tool. It definitely hooked a lot of people in, myself included, but I don’t feel that they’ve ever measured that. She’s hired, fired, and … I think when we try to have that argument based on our inner sense that something’s not right, then that doesn’t carry a whole lot of weight against a thing that you can concretely measure. That’s what I’m talking about when I say we need that just as a baseline before we even get into how we make decisions. 76. Gerry: Great, I’ll throw a link to your Twitter in the show notes. We see design systems as a tool or a tool kit for designers and developers to make better, more user centred, mostly visual and occasionally interaction design decisions. You know. Yeah. If you’ve ever done any human subject’s research or any medical research, you get familiar with this idea that it’s about minimising harm, it’s about informed consent. Many of you will be familiar with her work, but for those of you who are not, Kim has written some fantastic articles and wrote the design design staple: How to Create Human-Centred Products and Services. When our actual experience with a company or an organisation goes so much deeper than that. Kim: Thank you so much for having me. I find those organisations make slower progress. But it’s also a way to introduce some flexibility and some real world translation, right? But we can’t focus on some individuals, and move others away from self actualization, which I feel is the case with many products. She went on to receive her medical degree from Brown University in Rhode Island, where she was presented with many accolades. View C Kim Goodwin’s professional profile on Relationship Science, the database of decision makers. Kim Goodwin 'Decision Systems and their role in enabling human centeredness to occur within organisations' 09/03/2019. She has been with us two times before; in 2015 she did one of the most appreciated talks in FBTB history on the China stage. Kim Goodwin. Kim has spent 25 years in Service Design and UX, helping businesses build their internal design capabilities through coaching and organizational change management. If we crank it to a certain point, maybe we don’t lose anything noticeable. 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